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The Current Transcript for June 7, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

FEMALE SPEAKER: You’re just going to buy something at the counter. It offers to give 25% tips. And I mean, like there wasn't really any service provider…

FIRST MALE SPEAKER: In the ice cream shack and 18% was like option one…

SECOND MALE SPEAKER: To scoop my ice cream.

MATT GALLOWAY: There was a time not long ago when tipping as a nod to good service was a discretionary addition to the bill by the customer. You tipped what you felt comfortable with. These days, in many businesses, the tip is presumed and the amount is strongly suggested, often beginning at 18% on an iPad that’s swiveled towards you. In 30 minutes, how that technology can nudge us to tip more and play on our desire to seem generous. Also this morning, tens of thousands of Ukrainians are on alert and could be on the move after a huge dam in that country was breached. Coming up, what we do and don't know about the explosion and the role that the Dnipro River plays in the lives of those in that region. Plus, Chinatowns across this country are community gathering spots, a place to get great food and connect with Chinese culture. It wasn't always that way, though.

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KAREN CHO: Chinatown traditionally has always been in the undesirable place of town and often gets expropriated or moved when that area becomes desirable.

MG: In an hour, how development and changing cultural patterns have put Chinatowns under threat and the efforts of a new generation to save them. In the face of a growing affordable housing crisis, though, we begin with a push against rising rents. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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TENANT UNIONS

Guests: Sharlene Henry, Pierce Nettling, Cole Webber

MG: As housing costs continue to climb, some renters are organizing, arguing unions aren't just for work, they're also for the home. And the result is that tenants in two Toronto neighbourhoods are on strike, refusing to pay rent. And they're part of a movement among renters across this country pushing for collective bargaining for tenants. Sharlene Henry is chair of the Tenant Association at 33 King Street in downtown Toronto. It's one of the buildings currently striking. Sharlene, good morning.

SHARLENE HENRY: Good morning.

MG: Why are you refusing to pay your rent?

SHARLENE HENRY: Well, we're refusing to pay rent here at 33 King Street because we have had the most above guideline AGI increases over the past five years in the city. And even in the last decade, we are the number one building for having above guideline increases. The tenants in this building have had enough.

MG: We should just explain, above guideline increases mean that landlords in your province have to go to the landlord tenant board if they want to increase the rent above what the annual allowable rent increase is. In 2023, that's 2.5%.

SHARLENE HENRY: That is correct. And our building has been subject to many. And even in the year 2021 when Doug Ford announced a rent freeze, the tenants in this building were subject to a 3% above guideline increase, which was very frustrating.

MG: How much has your rent increased?

SHARLENE HENRY: My rent as increased in the past five years about 22% in percentage and in dollars, approximately about $200 over the past four to five years.

MG: And so if you don't mind me asking, I mean, what does that mean for you? What are the choices that you have to make when the rent goes up?

SHARLENE HENRY: It's a choice of prioritizing. Rent has to be paid. We need somewhere to live. Family, a partner, three young children, we do need somewhere to live. And it becomes a choice, especially during the past three years of rolling lockdowns and me being off from work and him being off from work as well on a layoff and having less income. It's a choice between we’ve got to eat, we have to have somewhere to live and everything else is put to the backburner because we have to be able to survive.

MG: And so for people like yourself in the building, why have you taken the step of not paying the rent? What is it in that that you just described that would lead you to say, you know what, what we're going to do is we're going to withhold our rent to try to get change.

SHARLENE HENRY: We are frustrated as a collective, as a tenant association. Folks are very frustrated. It's been many years of educating tenants with the tenant Association about how this does affect us each year. And even though the landlord tenant board hasn't heard a few of our cases yet, we're still subject to being told we should pay into this above guideline increase, which legally we don't have to. But it's a matter of folks putting aside money in preparation for not possibly winning the 3% back. So it's about educating the tenants in the building to understand that we can fight against this collectively and as a grassroots organization, we can fight back and say, hey, we want to see the table negotiate with you. We were very successful last year in the spring and summer of 2022 with negotiating our 2018 above guideline increase. We waited four years for that case to be heard. And we were successful with organizing phones up. We marched, protesting in front of our building. We marched to our MP’s office who happens to be the Minister of Housing here in Weston. We just did everything we could to fight back and let them know, the building owners, Dream, and their lawyers know that, hey, we know what this is. We know this is a way to get around rent control and we've had enough. We are going to stand up to you as much as we can and we want something back for our inconveniences. We're under renovations constantly in the past five years and it's very inconvenient for tenants in the building.

MG: We contacted your landlord, Dream Unlimited. They bought the property in late 2021. And they sent us a statement that says in part, they're making efforts to decarbonize the building, including upgrading boilers, plumbing, mechanical systems. You mentioned the renovations. They've also said that they're doing much needed balcony restoration to keep residents safe. That all costs money. Why shouldn't they raise the rents to help pay for those improvements to your building?

SHARLENE HENRY: Well, when we look at someone who's a homeowner and they have to fix, I'll give the example of the roof, my roof was done a few years ago. When they have to fix their roof, they have to come out of pocket to fix their roof. Dream has said publicly and in their statements that their rental units are 50% profit. A homeowner doesn't make 50% profit on their home. They live there, right? So and they have to pay out of pocket. So we're saying that we need to be accommodated. We need to be told, you know what, this is an inconvenience for you. We haven't been told that in all of our communication with Dream. Having no balconies for a year is a terrible situation. It’s terrible for the person who lives in the apartment. And the whole neighbourhood hears it because it's constant jackhammering.

MG: So just to be clear, you think that that cost should be borne by the landlords, not borne by the tenant.

SHARLENE HENRY: Yes, I do believe that. After everything I've learned and been through for the past years, I do believe that.

MG: This is a risky strategy. I mean, you're breaking what is essentially a contract and a lease in not paying the rent. You could ultimately be evicted if they decide you're not paying the rent and they go to the landlord tenant board for refusal to pay the rent. Why do you think this is a good idea? What would you hope to achieve in this?

SHARLENE HENRY: We hope to be able to negotiate and be at essentially, in quotations, a bargaining table to speak with the landlord and not… We've had a conversation with a representative from the landlord and the conversation was very one sided. And as I've told her, this is our home. This is where we live, where people have retired, where they raised their families, where people are currently raising their families, and we are willing to fight for it. We're not here because we've been placed here. We've chosen to live here. This is our home. And we'd like to sit at the table with you and discuss what can be done, as they say in their emails, to make this a better place to live. And part of it starts with fighting against the above guideline increases and going from there.

MG: Sharlene, glad to talk to you about this. Thank you very much.

SHARLENE HENRY: Thank you. Have a great day.

MG: And you. Sharlene Henry is chair of the Tenant Association at a building in Toronto that is holding a rent strike. She's also co-chair of the York Southwest Tenant Union in Toronto. Pierce Nettling is a housing researcher and board member with Rent Strike Bargain. It's a tenant rights group based in British Columbia. Pierce, good morning to you.

PIERCE NETTLING: Good morning. Glad to be here.

MG: Glad to have you here. We just heard about the situation at a building in Toronto. You're in Victoria. What's the state of housing affordability in that city?

PIERCE NETTLING: The state of housing affordability in Victoria is one of precariousness and where tenants fear of finding a place to rent and then leaving their place because of increasing rents, primarily through corporate landlords and real estate investment trusts.

MG: And so one of the things that you have called on is for renters in British Columbia to be able to unionize. We often think of unions obviously in a workplace. This is different. Tell me a little bit of how that would work.

PIERCE NETTLING: Well, how that would work is similar to how it works in the workplace. The union would have, your building would be a part of a union that would be connected to your broader community and you would have collective bargaining rights enshrined to the building itself through a grievance of some kind. And then you would, your contract with the landlord had to be, it would have to be, it has to be, the contract would have to be through the landlord. So the landlord would have to follow the guideline.

MG: So you would be negotiating with, it would be a collective of tenants, but you would be negotiating your rent, you would be negotiating the agreement with the landlord.

PIERCE NETTLING: Exactly.

MG: What would that do? What would that do for tenants, do you think?

PIERCE NETTLING: It would increase their social rights in Canada, for one, and it would give power to them. So the biggest thing we hear from tenants is the fear. And so when you have rights, you're not in fear anymore.

MG: In the current situation where you said that, you know, renters are worried that landlords, corporate landlords, in your words, would increase rent, if there is the ability to organize, practically, what difference do you think that would make?

PIERCE NETTLING: The difference it would make, the landlord, so it’s a power relationship. So the landlords would have to abide by the tenants’ concerns and their issues and they must follow the law. So in terms of a vacancy control or in terms of what's going on in Toronto, they cannot increase rents beyond what the provincial law allows. And so that's one aspect of it. And another aspect of it is inside of the buildings themselves, tenants talk about, for example, things that matter to them and their community such as like laundry is being increasingly increased. And so that doesn't, that's more money taken from the tenant to a landlord for profit. These issues are similar to a workplace.

MG: There are limits in B.C. when it comes to how much rents can be increased, right? I think it's 2% in 2023?

PIERCE NETTLING: Yes.

MG: So from your perspective, why is that ruling not significant or not sufficient, I suppose?

PIERCE NETTLING: It's not sufficient because once a tenant leaves their unit, the landlord can raise the rent as much as they want.

MG: That's that issue of vacancy control that you mentioned.

PIERCE NETTLING: Yes, that's vacancy control. So what ends up happening is the reason rents keep going higher and higher in B.C. is because when someone leaves their unit, the landlord then will either, quote unquote, renovate it or just simply increase the rent by 40 to 60%. And so that's how you get this massive disparities you see in building of long term tenants who are paying a rent that in some cases are 50, 60% less than people who have just moved in. And that's the absence of vacancy control.

MG: Landlords, I mean, are any number of different things. They can be large corporations, they can be small investors, they can be individuals. They are subject to an increase in lending rates, an increase in property taxes. How do you go about balancing the costs of the landlords? And I mean, let's be honest, these are often for profit businesses as well. How do you balance that with the needs and the rights of the tenants?

PIERCE NETTLING: We understand certain landlord concerns that are, I would say, the so-called mom and pop landlords, which is I had that experience in Quebec where my landlord lived below me in the same building. That is not necessarily the experience that most tenants in this country actually face. The largest landlord in Canada is Starlite, which is a real estate investment trust and they are asset managers. And their purpose to exist is purely to make profit. So they're making millions of dollars off of every single building that they own. And so they have the money to do that, to put in actual renovations and what have you. They are just, they don't, if the laws are not there, they will then not have to follow. And so the reason tenant rights are about social rights and similar to a labour union is that, you know, the landlord, in this case, the corporate ones, will continue to exploit the tenant. So that's basically the sort of issue that we see as the main problem.

MG: And that this way of organizing in some ways changes that balance from your perspective and gives a bit more weight to the rights of the tenants.

PIERCE NETTLING: Yes, because it's about building tenant power as a class, because in the case of B.C., for example, the Union of Municipalities of British Columbia, they are, whenever they try to pass motive about the motion about vacancy control, they said last year, for example, that it was too much for them because they themselves are landlords. So what tenants in British Columbia in particular are dealing with is sort of an entire governance structure that is totally predicated on landlord power and defending that power. And so the only way to actually address the fundamental issue is to organize.

MG: Pierce, we'll leave it there. Good to talk to you about this. Thank you.

PIERCE NETTLING: Oh, thank you.

MG: Pierce Nettling is a housing researcher and board member with Rent Strike Bargain. It's a tenants rights group based in British Columbia. Cole Webber is a legal worker for Parkdale Community Legal Services in Toronto. He helped organize and helped tenants organize a rent strike back in 2017. Cole, good morning to you.

COLE WEBBER: Good morning.

MG: Why did tenants in the Parkdale neighbourhood that you work in go on a rental strike, what, six years ago?

COLE WEBBER: Tenants went on rent strike to oppose rent increases above the guidelines sought by their landlord and one that struggle. And similarly today, tenants in the Thorncliffe Park neighbourhood of Toronto are currently on rent strike against above guideline rent increases sought by PSP Investments, a Canadian Crown corporation which uses the pension monies of federal public service workers to buy up apartment buildings.

MG: You said in 2017, that was a successful, they won that rent strike. What does that mean?

COLE WEBBER: Through the force of the tenants actions, they succeeded in bringing the landlord to the table to negotiate a settlement. So they used rent withholding to put financial pressure on the landlord and then continued to campaign in a very public way to oppose the rent increases.

MG: Tell me more about that. I mean, this is this idea of collective bargaining broadly. Why is collective bargaining such a powerful tool, do you think, for tenant rights?

COLE WEBBER: The rent strike is a tactic which organized tenants use to put financial pressure on their landlords in a public way. So right now in Thorncliffe Park, you have over 125 tenants who have withheld their rent to demand that PSP Investments withdraw its applications to raise rents above the guideline. So they're using this as a pressure tactic. And the rent strike was called for after more than a year of tenants coming together to begin to organize and make their demands of the landlord.

MG: What are you bargaining over in those negotiations?

COLE WEBBER: The rent strike in Thorncliffe Park against PSP Investments is a rent strike about rising rents. Tenants cannot afford to pay repeated above guideline rent increases. These are working class people. These are your factory workers, warehouse workers, uber drivers, personal support workers. Their need is to put food on the table and to keep a roof over their family's head. They're up against a massive pension investment corporation, PSP Investments, which controls over $200 billion in assets, and Canada's largest residential landlord, Starlite. So for them, this is about meeting their basic needs and maintaining the integrity of their communities, the possibility of them remaining in their homes in Thorncliffe Park.

MG: Aside from this dispute that you've mentioned at Thorncliffe Park, if you're a landlord and you're listening to this, you might wonder why you would want to negotiate with tenants. Why should landlords be brought to the table to negotiate? What's in it for them?

COLE WEBBER: The landlords in Thorncliffe Park, PSP Investments, they've tried to say that the above guideline increases are out of their control, that it's simply something for the landlord and tenant board to decide when in fact, these are applications that it has made to the landlord and tenant board seeking approval to raise the rent above the guideline. So what tenants are saying is you need to withdraw those applications. It's perfectly within your power to withdraw those applications today. You need to rescind the eviction notices that you've sent out to rent strikers and come to the table to negotiate a settlement to this thing.

MG: But for a landlord, why would a landlord do that, do you think? What is in it for the landlords?

COLE WEBBER: To resolve the dispute. This is a collective dispute where well over 125 tenants are currently withholding the rent. So the rent being withheld is currently, you know, in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, revenue that the landlord right now does not have access to. And as we've seen, there's growing public support and public pressure on these corporations to settle these disputes. This is not the case of, it’s not a case of individual financial concern or tenants. These are collective disputes and these rent increases. Really put displacement pressure on hundreds of tenants and impede their ability to basically provide for their families.

MG: Cole, thank you very much for this.

COLE WEBBER: Thanks.

MG: Cole Webber is a legal worker for Parkdale Community Service in Toronto, helped organize a rent strike back in 2017. We did contact the Canadian Federation of Apartment Associations. The president of that organization, John Dickey, sent us a statement. It reads in part, “Unlike most labour strikes, rent strikes are a breach of contract. Participating in one will damage a tenant’s credit rating. If tenants want to control the property they live in rather than just rent it, they need to create a cooperative and buy or build a property, not try to take one over.” Your thoughts on this are welcome. You can email us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. The CBC news is next. And then, we'll head to Ukraine. A dam collapse there has meant flooding for a community that is already in a war zone. We'll talk about what life is like there on the ground coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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NOVA KAKOVKA DAM COLLAPSE

Guest: Tim Mak

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Water is still rushing through a collapsed dam in southern Ukraine. Tens of thousands of people in that country and in Russian controlled regions are feeling the effects of the flood and both sides are pointing fingers. That story next.

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APRIL HUGGETT: As far as the state of people's homes, we all know what water damage can do. So given the next 24 to 48 hours, we'll see if the waters keep rising or if they recede. I've been in contact with local administration and coordinators all day, so we brought things off of their top five lists like adult diapers, children's diapers, basic medicines and hygiene and water.

MG: That's April Huggett. She is a Canadian volunteer driving to Kherson, Ukraine, with much needed supplies. The Nova Kakovka Dam spans the Dnipro River. It is a crucial piece of infrastructure. And yesterday, an explosion caused that dam to collapse, sending vast amounts of water downstream. As people flee their flooded homes, both Ukraine and Russia continue to blame each other for the dam's destruction. Tim Mak is a journalist and founder of counteroffensive.news. It's an online publication reporting on the war in Ukraine. We've reached him this morning in Zaporizhia. Tim, hello.

TIM MAK: Hey there.

MG: What is the situation in the region right now? You posted video of you arriving there. What do you see?

TIM MAK: Well, so one thing I want to emphasize is that this dam was on what's known as the Dnipro River, and it is the pumping artery of Ukraine, not just in terms of transportation or logistics, but in terms of its economy. 70% of people in Ukraine get their fresh water from this river. In terms of food, there are huge agricultural impacts of this river. It's used to help grow a lot of the foodstuffs that are produced in Ukraine. There's a lot of fishing on this river and all of this has been disrupted. Fishing has been disrupted. And right now, I'm sitting next to the Dnipro River and I'm looking out across it. And you can see how the water is receding from its high mark. I'm talking to folks here who are saying they've never seen the river this low before in their life. And so there's going to be enormous impacts for the long term for Ukrainians as a result of the dam breach, not to mention the acute immediate impact of the humanitarian disaster that is the result of flooding of some 80 settlements in the flood path.

MG: What is the scale of that? I mean, there are videos that are circulating this morning showing houses floating away, men who are trying to escape. There’s sort of half submerged bus. There are families in boats. What's the scale of the immediate crisis when it comes to the flooding?

TIM MAK: Well, there are thousands and thousands of people in the flood path. And as you've mentioned, there are videos of people trapped in there, in their homes, on their roofs, on makeshift boats trying to escape. It's going to take some time to figure out the total extent of the damage and the casualties that have occurred as a result of this sudden flooding. That said, there are already enormous humanitarian efforts underway to get refugees and internally displaced people out of the Kherson region and towards safer places in the west of Ukraine.

MG: President Zelensky has called this a possible war crime. The Kremlin says this was premeditated sabotage. What do we know and what don't we know about what actually happened to the dam?

TIM MAK: Well, I'm speaking to people here in Zaporizhia who are telling me that they've noticed this very unusual increase in the water level ahead of the explosion there. And what they're saying is that this is evidence that the Russians closed or limited water access through the dam in the weeks ahead of this dam breach. A lot of folks here, fisherman, people who are really familiar with the river say that Russia, who was in control of the area around the dam, say that Russia increased the level to make the consequences of this breach more deadly and more catastrophic. That's the view from what I'm hearing here in Zaporizhia.

MG: What are the impacts, though, of, you know, the conflicting narratives on trying to deal with what's happening right now? Because, again, there's a disagreement as to what actually unfolded. There's a disagreement as to who's responsible, but the impacts of that are being seen right now. And so when you don't have people agreeing, what does that mean for the work that needs to be done to deal with this crisis?

TIM MAK: Well, to deal with the crisis, you don't really need to really determine blame for who caused it, right? There's going to be enormous rebuilding work to be done in the immediate future. Animals who are in the areas that have been flooded need to be rescued. People who are in the flood path need to be evacuated. They need to be housed. They need to be given food and clothing and the basic necessities of life. And then later, the issue of who was responsible can be determined through evidence. I mean, there's some really interesting open source satellite imagery which has become very, very, very good in recent years. And I'm sure that people will be turning to that to determine the most likely culprit for this ecological and economic disaster.

MG: It's not just Ukrainians, of course, who are being affected by this. How are people in the Russian controlled areas of this region being affected by what's going on?

TIM MAK: Well, in this way, you know, the water doesn't check nationality before it devastates lives, right? If you're in the flood path, it doesn't matter whether you're on territory held by Ukrainians or territory held by Russians. It's devastating equally. Now, you know, in terms of clues of who might have been responsible, there are historical parallels here that not this particular dam, but along the Dnipro River, a dam near Zaporizhia was blown out during World War II in 1941 by retreating Soviet forces in order to prevent advancing German Nazi troops from crossing the Dnipro and continuing their advance. When the Germans did take over this area, they rebuilt the dam. And when they were retreating sometime later, they blew it up a second time. And so the Dnipro River has been used as a sort of deterrent or a counterbalance against the advancing military forces in the past. And one suspects that there might be some truth to that again and some sort of historical echo in that today.

MG: Tell me more about that because, again, understanding that there is still a dispute as to who is responsible for the breaching of this dam, this comes at a time when, you know, the much heralded spring offensive by Ukrainian forces may actually be underway or set to begin. And so what do we think the military impact of this will be for both the Ukrainian forces, but also for Russian forces?

TIM MAK: You know, one of the most challenging military operations are things that involve what are called multiple domains, right, from air to ground or from ground to water or from water to ground landing. Going from land to water to land again is a difficult thing because you're very vulnerable when you're switching from one domain to the other. And so this dam breach has created a huge flood along a vast expanse of the Ukrainian south, just ahead of what we're understanding is the signal, are signals that the Ukrainian counteroffensive may be beginning. And it's going to make a Ukrainian advance or a counterattack or a counteroffensive much more difficult because it lengthens and widens the amount of space that troops are going to have to go over. And then it also creates for a long period of time a lot of mud, which creates inefficiencies in movement, right? So vehicles can move through, but it takes more time and it makes you more vulnerable when you're moving through mud. So these are all challenges that the Ukrainians will need to face now that this reality has come upon them.

MG: I mean, there are also real concerns about the Zaporizhia Nuclear Power Station. This is the largest nuclear power plant in Europe. It's not far away from this. And in the immediate aftermath of the breach of this dam, people's attention turned there. What do we know about the risk to this power plant?

TIM MAK: Well, so the Zaporizhia nuclear power plant does draw water from the Dnipro River, but it's upstream of where the dam was breached. And right now, what you're hearing from both Ukrainian and Russian officials is that they have a sufficient amount of water in their reservoirs to continue safe operating the plant in the near term. So there is unanimity between Ukrainian and Russian nuclear regulators that there is no acute emergency at that plant. But it's yet another reminder of how precarious the situation is to have a nuclear plant, you know, near the site of active combat and violent hostilities and how with a misunderstanding, with a mistake, with an accident, something could go terribly, terribly wrong.

MG: Just finally, as somebody who has covered this war closely, what does this, again, there are conflicting narratives as to what's going on, but it comes at a time when the war is poised to, it seems, take a turn. What does this tell you about the state of the conflict right now?

TIM MAK: Well, look, the flooding of vast areas as a defensive manoeuvre, if that's in fact what happened, is a sign of not a strength, but of weakness on the part of the Russian military that if they felt confident that they could hold their existing positions using their dug in, you know, weapons placements in where their troops are, that such a move would be unnecessary. So if in fact that it was done by the Russians, it's a signal that they're very concerned about what might be coming ahead with the possible Ukrainian counteroffensive.

MG: Tim, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much.

TIM MAK: Thanks so much.

MG: Tim Mak is a journalist and founder of counteroffensive.news. It's an online publication that reports on the war in Ukraine. He was in Zaporizhia.

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TIPPING

Guest: Olivier St-Cyr

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. My name is Matt Galloway.

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FEMALE SPEAKER: It used to be standard to tip 15%, which like I think is reasonable. But now, the minimum is that 18% or even some places will be 20% minimum. If the restaurant sets it to 20% and you have to actually go in and change it to make it lower, I feel guilted into tipping the higher amount.

MG: If you have been to a restaurant or a coffee shop lately, you might be able to relate to that. When it comes time to pay, servers often will present you with a tablet. On that screen, there are prompts to tip and suggested amounts. These suggested tips are not limited to a dine in meal. They come with takeout orders, morning coffees and stops at many other businesses.

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MALE SPEAKER: I believe the tipping culture has extended beyond a reasonable limit, like the base percent of 15%, 18%, 25 these days, even at the places where you just cash and carry out. It sounds a bit unreasonable. Not so long ago, like a few years ago, we had small tipping cups at Tim Hortons or Starbucks or some of these places where you can have a loose change that you had in your pocket that can be a quick tip.

FEMALE SPEAKER: Tipping I think is necessary in the right atmosphere because like I work in the service industry where it's like I rely on my tips. But I think that it's gone a little bit overboard because I feel like when you go to a fast food restaurant, they expect tips and it's automatic. So I just kind of feel pressured into tipping. Even if you wanted to customize the amount, it's like you feel like you can't because everyone there is watching you.

MALE SPEAKER: It’s more of a cultural shock for me. From where I'm coming from, you tip voluntarily, like at your discretion. But coming into Canada, it's looking as if it's compulsory and like you have to do it. It's just not something that I really, really fancy. It’s so much Now everywhere you go. I think maybe they should reduce it a bit because it's becoming unfriendly now.

MG: Olivier St-Cyr is an associate professor at the Faculty of Information at the University of Toronto and currently a visiting associate professor at the University of British Columbia. He studies user experience design and is here to talk about how technology in some ways shapes the way we tip these days. Olivier, good morning.

OLIVIER ST-CYR: Good morning to you.

MG: We'll talk about the specific technology in a moment, but just broadly, briefly, what is it that has created this shift in tipping culture that we just heard people talking about?

OLIVIER ST-CYR: So I think definitely, I think the pandemic has contributed to this. And to be honest, like I can be sort of sympathetic to this. Like we all remember during the pandemic, like many restaurants were not able to serve us in-person, were not able to welcome us in their dining rooms. Some restaurants even had to completely shut down. Many restaurants reverted to takeout only. So and, you know, we all kind of felt somewhat bad for them in the sense that, you know, the workers were not working at full potential. Some people had to be laid off. Some restaurant that maybe had a staff of like 20 went down to like 10 people. So I think back in those days, not so long ago in fact, like people were kind of sympathetic to say, you know what, like we're going to give a little bit more to the restaurant worker. We got to help them. Even if we do takeout, like we're going to tip a little bit so that, you know, their business can stay alive. But now, like of course, we're in a different situation, but some of this practice seems to have been sort of continued over time. And this is where like people are kind of questioning this, is this relevant now nowadays?

MG: Let's talk about how this unfolds. As I say, if you go to a coffee shop, a restaurant, many places, that you will be presented with a piece of technology that will help you make that tip. And it's often a tablet. It's turned toward you. How did those tablets become so popular?

OLIVIER ST-CYR: Yes. So I mean, again, the pandemic sort of brought in a lot of people who started paying with digital means, right? And it's not just the pandemic. It's also a tendency in general that we observe is, you know, people pay more with credit cards, people pay more with Apple Pay, with their phone. And so, of course, people pay with technology or pay with digital means. The best way to receive this kind of payment is to have another piece of technology at the other end that is there. So I think we're seeing sort of less and less people paying cash and more people like having these. And these technologies are very, very quick, right? Like it’s tapping your phone, tapping your credit card. It makes it like if you're standing in a long line up in the morning waiting for your coffee or your bagel, you're actually like being able to pay very quickly. So I think a lot of sort of restaurant owners and people who sell, not just big restaurant or sit down restaurants, but like small coffee shops and things like that are bringing these options on board so that it facilitates payment, essentially, right?

MG: The options come with a suggested tip. And as we heard, often, that suggestion begins at 18%, could be 20%, might be a little bit more than that. What is the relationship between the design of that technology and how much we tip?

OLIVIER ST-CYR: Yeah. I think this is the core of the question here. Like I mean, I was just listening to some of this snippets of interviews that you've done with people just before I started the segment. And people are really talking about the machine. They're really talking about their experience of tipping. Sort of in user experience design, we study the relationship between people and technology, and there are really two aspects to this. There's a psychological aspect and a design aspect per se. So on the psychology aspect, you can see that some of the people who were talking were saying, you know, I feel uncomfortable or I feel like I'm being cheap if I don't give enough tip. There's an aspect of the social desirability bias that comes into this. We want to be viewed by others as being good or as being like socially accepted. So what is the norm in terms of tipping to be socially accepted, to not be seen by either the person who was selling us that good or the people we go to the restaurant with and we hang around with, if you go with a bunch of friends, to not be seen as being cheap?

MG: This is called the Hawthorne Effect?

OLIVIER ST-CYR: Yeah, the Hawthorne effect is, well, it's social desirability bias. And then it also plays with the Hawthorne effect, which shows that when we're being observed, we tend to change our behaviour to be slightly more positive. People will do this a lot with respect to answering survey questions, right? Even though they have certain beliefs, they will actually answer the questions in a more sort of positive way or some sort of socially desirable way.

MG: Right.

OLIVIER ST-CYR: So if you think about tipping, right, there are really two types of tips. There's these kind of iPad looking kiosk or point of sale that you see that’s kind of swiveled towards you. And then there's also the traditional, what we call the portable interact machine that your server brings you to your table and then sets it up and ask you to put your card in to pay. But in both contexts, you're highly, you're being observed quite a bit. I mean, sometimes when the person brings the portable machine to your table, they'll step, you know, a few feet away from your table. They’ll turn their back just to let you figure out how much tip you want to give. So you can kind of have a little bit of privacy. But I mean, typically, the person is really close to you still. But in the case of these kind of iPad looking machines that the server will enter your order in and then they'll just turn it towards you, the person is literally in front of you. So of course, you're kind of being pressured and you feel observed by the person. You feel that the person is actually looking at you like deciding how much tip you're going to give. So you kind of want to look good.

MG: And there's a design part to that as well. I mean, you talked as well about this issue of dark design. Just briefly tell us what that means.

OLIVIER ST-CYR: Yeah. So there's a, so that's the second aspect. The psychology is the first and the design is the second aspect. All aspects of you trying to trick people or purposely get people to pick something on a user interface. So and this comes to like how the information, this is how the information is displayed on the user interface per se the digital technology. So in dark design, there's this concept of preselection. So the dark design patterns that are preselection is like the user is presented with some default options that are really being selected for them. And it's kind of difficult to get out or to get away from these default options.

MG: That it's hard to pick your own number that you want to tip on because the numbers are right in front of you.

OLIVIER ST-CYR: That's right. And essentially influencing their decision making, right? And so if you give three options, for example, let's say 8%, 10% and 15%, people will normally not pick the first option because it looks like, you know, you're being the cheapest or you're not being socially desired. So people will pick the second or the third option. But now, you just shift the numbers, right? Like the first option becomes 15% and the second option becomes 18% and the third option becomes 22%. People will still pick the second or the third option because again, it's like the first option is being seen as being sort of the cheapest option and the not so good option to pick, even though it's quite a considerable number sometimes. As some of the people said, it can start at 15 or 18% range, right?

MG: We just have a couple of minutes left. Part of this is around the whole culture of tipping. And there has been the argument that people's wages are being supplemented by tipping and what we would really do, that you could eliminate tipping, pay people more. That way, you wouldn't have this sort of thing. But as it exists right now, do you worry, people talk about tip creep. Do you worry that this could backfire?

OLIVIER ST-CYR: I think so. I think, again, because of the design of those machines, those machines are extremely easy for the owners to customize. It's just a few settings that you can go in the back end of the machine and customize them. And I think if people don't give an option for either no tip or customizing the tip on the display, it could essentially for sure backfire against them. I've just seen one yesterday where I was purchasing something at a kiosk and there was a custom button and a no tip button. So at least, you have the three preselected options, but you can also put no tip very easily. On some machines, putting no tip is really a few extra step. You've got to go in, click others, then you got to put zero, click enter, then you've got to again confirm the amount. So as opposed to just clicking a no tip button. But even in the case of the no tip button and the custom button, these buttons were much smaller than the actual three preselected tipping options. So you're not making it equal. Like in terms of visual display, in terms of visual space, you're really drawing the attention to these preselection options that are there. And again, it's very easy, right? You just tap an option. People will wait in line. They know they're being pressured. There's like, you know, 20 people waiting behind them.

MG: And you don't want to look cheap.

OLIVIER ST-CYR: Yeah, you don't want to look cheap and you don't want to also take like six or seven extra steps in order to customize the tipping amount that you're going to put. So you just go with one of the preselected option. And so if you read like Google comments for some restaurants and all that, there's some people that are starting to complain that some places are asking for too much tip and it backfires, obviously. And some owners have responded very nicely and they say, you know, we now include a more customized option or no tipping option. But it's all about how they set up the machine and how that information is displayed, right?

MG: The hidden things behind the tipping process. Olivia, thank you very much.

OLIVIER ST-CYR: Yes. No problem. You're more than welcome.

MG: Olivier St-Cyr is an associate professor at the Faculty of Information at the University of Toronto, currently a visiting associate professor at UBC. Your thoughts on this are welcome. In terms of tipping prompts that you're being offered, how do you navigate those? What are you worried about? Are you worried about looking cheap? Do you pick the second or third option because of that? Email us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. Your regional update is next. And then.

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KAREN CHO: Chinatown has always been a neighbourhood of sanctuary of inclusion and it has very deep layers of meaning for so many of us. In a way, we see Chinatown as our ancestral village.

MG: Chinatowns may be sanctuaries for Chinese immigrants, but those sacred spaces are in jeopardy across this country, with rising rents and development getting closer and closer and closer. The Future of Chinatown coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

CHINATOWN DOCUMENTARY

Guests: Karen Cho, Rick Wong

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MARY CHIU: And then we saw the condos being built like right beside the arches. That's when it sounded the alarm to us. And we thought, oh my God, if we don't do something, we're going to lose all of Chinatown.

MG: Mary Chiu is with the Chinatown Working Group in Montreal, and she's one of many people fighting to save that neighbourhood from development. It's not a fight that's just happening in Montreal. Across North America, people with ties to historic Chinatowns are banding together to preserve those communities. And their story is the subject of a new film by Karen Cho. The film is called “Big Fight in Little Chinatown”. Karen Cho is with me in studio along with Ric Wong, one of the people featured in this film. Good morning to you both.

KAREN CHO: Good morning.

RICK WONG: Good morning.

MG: You have a personal connection with that Chinatown that Mary was talking about off the top there. What does that neighbourhood mean to you?

KAREN CHO: Well, I mean, I'm a fifth generation Chinese-Canadian on my father's side, so my family roots go very deep to the beginnings of Montreal's Chinatown and also Vancouver's Chinatown. My grandmother was born in Montreal’s Chinatown in 1919, in an era where, you know, in the 100th year of commemorating the Exclusion Act. So, you know, my family lived through that, and my grandmother was one of the only children in the neighbourhood at the time. So for the Chinese in general, I think Chinatown has always been a neighbourhood of a sanctuary of inclusion, and it has very deep layers of meaning for so many of us.

MG: In the film, somebody refers to Chinatown in many ways as an origin story. I mean, what does that mean?

KAREN CHO: Well, I think, you know, it's true. Like there was a subject in the film here in Toronto, actually, that I was filming with who told me, you know, I don't necessarily relate to China, but I relate to Chinatown. And so many of us, you know, in a way, we see that Chinatown as our ancestral village. It's kind of the beginnings of the Chinese in Canada in some ways. You know, we came for the railway and the gold rush, but really, because of these kind of laws against Chinese immigration, you know, the Chinese were forced to live in a certain neighbourhood and couldn't buy property outside of Chinatown. So and up until, you know, as far as the 1960s, there were laws on the immigration books against Chinese. So in a way, especially because of the Exclusion Act, Chinatown became a place of family for us because we weren't allowed to bring our wives, have children here. So the Chinatowns, which in the beginnings were kind of these bachelor societies, they became that sense of mutual aid, sense of family, you know, a place of belonging in what was otherwise a very hostile environment.

MG: I mean, it's worth stressing that. I want to bring Ric into this in a moment, but this comes up in the film. And again, if people travel through Chinatowns throughout North America, you think of San Francisco and elsewhere, these weren't desirable neighbourhoods, right? They were created to box people in, to box a community in, right?

KAREN CHO: Yeah. I mean, back in the day, you know, the historic urban Chinatowns are right in downtown cores. But back in the day, you know, it was swamp land or the most undesirable kind of Skid Row, quote unquote, area of the city where the Chinese were kind of corralled. But it wasn't necessarily only Chinese. We were always put there with other marginalized groups and kind of coexisted with these groups. But yes, Chinatown traditionally has always been in the undesirable place of town and often gets expropriated or moved when that area becomes desirable.

MG: Rick, for you, what has Chinatown meant to you, that idea of Chinatown, but also the specific? What does that mean to you?

RICK WONG: So my background, I'm from London, Ontario, and my parents were in a lot of ways kind of success stories and in all that kind of way. But for me, the first time I came to Spadina, late 70s, really, something spoke to me about that neighbourhood. And for some reason, I mean, a lot of Chinese parents want to get their kids out of Chinatown. And my mom, specifically growing up in London, didn't want to teach us Chinese. She wanted to make sure that, I mean, I still do that when I come to the border, I speak with a Canadian accent, I sound Canadian and wanted us to fit in and to be able to avoid all the racism that I know that they went through in the past. But for me, Chinatown has always spoke to me. I mean, I kind of see it as like a looking glass, Alice's looking glass in that immigrants can come through, but I can also go through and see where they came from. So it's kind of like, I see it kind of like a portal in that kind of way. And for me, I think that's so important not to close that portal. So for me, I learn a lot by hanging out there and I feel comfortable there. And even though I was raised not to speak Chinese, I've learned, you know, I've gone to night school and stuff like that, but for me, there's an emotional attachment to the neighbourhood and the people that are there and the connections with people that I've made there.

MG: You mentioned Spadina. I mean, Spadina is in Toronto. There's a couple of different Chinatowns and now more than a couple. But in downtown Toronto, that's kind of the artery that runs through the one in the centre of the city. Do you remember coming there for the first time?

RICK WONG: Yeah, I distinctly remember coming there and then it was more Jewish as well. There was some of the big Jewish delis and there was sweatshops, sewing sweatshops. It's always had a working class kind of roots. I mean, I gravitate to Canal Street when I'm in New York, all those odd stores that are selling weird things. I mean, like there's kind of a maker mentality as well, which is really lost in modern cities where you don't make anything, you buy everything. And Spadina for me has always had that kind of hands on kind of characteristic.

MG: You mentioned development. It’s interesting. In the weeks before the pandemic, literally the weeks before, we were in Vancouver and we did a huge town hall and a panel discussion in Chinatown about Chinatowns in a restaurant that was kind of like an early warning signal for the pandemic coming. All the reservations were being cancelled. They said, something is up and you need to be aware of this. But it was interesting having that conversation in the community where people talked about development threatening Chinatown. What's the big threat to Chinatowns across this country?

KAREN CHO: Well, I mean, there is like a ton of gentrification pressure on these Chinatowns. The land that they're sitting on is worth a lot. So, you know, especially we've come out through COVID, like the film unfolds during COVID. I was actually in New York City like researching the film at a gathering of coast to coast Chinatowns Against Displacement. And three days after that gathering, you know, came home and they shut down New York because of COVID. So, you know, in Chinatown, we eat family style. You know, it's banquets, it's dim sum. It's a gathering place for the community. So all of that shut down during COVID. And COVID came down in very brutal ways in the neighbourhood. You know, they were stigmatized, you know, as early as January or beforehand. Then there was all the anti-Asian racism, plus, you know, just the regular closing and shuttering of restaurants and stores.

MG: That operate just on a shoestring anyway and the margins are very, very tight. And so if you're closed for a couple of weeks or months or longer than that, you're probably going to lose your restaurant.

KAREN CHO: Well, exactly. And it kind of created this perfect storm in a way. In my Montreal Chinatown, developers essentially descended on to the neighbourhood and started kind of scooping up property. Our most historic block got almost completely bought out by developers. They were assembling land. And when you see one group of developers buying, you know, building after building in Chinatown, you know that a big project is coming in. And that's where, you know, in Montreal, the community really mobilized because we knew that we were one condo project away from losing our Chinatown.

MG: And that's about kind of one building in particular in Montreal, right? I mean, there's larger development that's going on, but what was that one building that's at the centre of this discussion?

KAREN CHO: Well, it's the Wings Noodle building. They actually have two buildings that were bought out. And, you know, it's the most historic business in our Chinatown. They make fortune cookies. If anyone cracks open a fortune cookie, You see that Wing's logo. They've been operating in our Chinatown. Well, the business that became Wings, you know, has been operating since 1897. My own great grandfather was an associate in that business. They still make noodles right in the Chinatown today. Like every Thursday, everyone in Montreal knows it's whole fun noodle day. They make the rice noodles that day, and all the restaurants serve fresh, freshly made noodles by folks in the Chinatown. So but going back to even the Exclusion Act, like that business was an anchor in our community during this era where they tried to lock out all the Chinese from immigrating because the associates, and my great grandfather was one of them, were merchant class. Like we were able to, you know, be exempt from the head tax, bring people in. So, you know, Wings Noodles on one level is a historic business. That's very important. But on another level, because of the history of that business, it is literally the place that kept our Chinatown alive during that era of exclusion. So there's so many layers of history there. And the building of Wings Noodles goes back to 1826. One of the architects or the planners of that building is the same guy that made Notre-Dame Cathedral in Montreal.

MG: That’s amazing.

KAREN CHO: So, you know, even on an architectural level, it's a very important building that shouldn't just get demolished.

MG: Rick, what have you seen when it comes to the pressures against Chinatown in Toronto?

RICK WONG: The big thing that I think really was for me an eye opener, a tipping point kind of thing was the 315 Spadina development.

MG: And what is that?

RICK WONG: So 315 Spadina was where if you know Spadina Chinatown at all, there was a large restaurant called Rolls On. Beside it was a bun shop, which was the bun shop was one of the cheapest bun shops. A student told me that that's food security for us. Like we need that. And then a whole string of small stores and a lot of them were actually medical facilities, culturally specific medical facilities, a Vietnamese optometrist, dentist, all these kind of things. And that whole block got bought by a developer and is being, it's part of the studentification of Spadina in that it's not catering, some of the new development is not catering to families anymore or to seniors or to a wider disparity, but they’re actually focusing on like U of T is taking a lot of money out of foreign students, right? They're making a lot of money. So there's a lot of money to be at stake there. And the original proposal for the building was this massive 13 story building that was all tiny little units targeted towards students to extract as much money out of the site as possible. And when you look at, if you stand up Spadina, and I looked at the artist renderings of it, it's enormous. It's way out of scale with the neighbourhood. It's completely a different scale building for that area. And I'm looking at that and thinking, this is like all the condo development of Spadina has been setting precedent and it's marching up Spadina. I have a niece that lives down at Lakeshore and I think her building is like 60 stories or something. Like you can't take this model up the street. And I'm just thinking. And then also meeting with and talking to like my local herbalists and they're saying, I think we're going to go down. Like this is we're at a tipping point. All the things that have been incrementally biting away at Chinatown all of a sudden are coming due all at the same time. A lot of businesses, they're ageing out, all these kind of things. And so for me, there's a group called Friends of Chinatown who's really trying to fight the development for that. And the development process in Toronto is really stacked up for the developers. It's very hard for a street organization to fight a development. All of the material was all published all in English. All the meetings were in English. The development application signs were originally all in English, and so local community members, they have no idea what's going on. And then in order to navigate their way through the process to make any opposition to that, obviously, it's someone who's more educated, more privileged, who feels they have a voice in order to do that. And so the whole underclass of Chinatown is really forgotten about. And so for me, it's set off an alarm bell. It's like, hey, we could lose this whole thing. I mean, for years, I've been seeing, you know, grocery store after grocery store closed. There used to be half a dozen fairly large grocery stores, and now we're down to two or three. There used to be large banquet halls, now we're down to one big one and one small. Like so all these large community gathering spaces, one by one, they're all disappearing and they're moving out to the suburbs and all that. And so you really see that this whole neighbourhood is starting to get erased.

MG: Why does that matter if neighbourhoods change? And neighbourhoods change all the time, but also, people need places to live. And we'll talk about, you know, that idea of businesses ageing out because that's really interesting as well. But from your perspective, why does that matter?

RICK WONG: So change is inevitable in a neighbourhood, but what's I think forgotten in the conversation about change is there's an existing neighbourhood there which is a high density neighbourhood by any standard in the rest of Canada. It's actually a fairly high density neighbourhood. And there's a whole web of interconnected relationships that people have there. And there's cultural generators in that neighbourhood, like something like Sneaky Dee’s or something like these banquet halls that we go to or whatever. And to say that you can just erase those and put up a Walmart or some kind of large, big box corporate thing, it doesn't replace all of the stuff which was there. There's this idea that you can export some of the poverty to the suburbs. And I've been doing cycle education work out in the suburbs, and you see these new immigrant people like, you know, Shawarma Alley out on Lawrence, but you need a car out there. The infrastructure is really bad. We have a livable walking neighbourhood, a dense livable walking neighbourhood which is existing right now, and you want to destroy it and move it up in the income scale. And then all the people that are there now get dispersed out to the suburbs. And, you know, it's expensive to own a car. And so it exacerbates the inequality in the city, and those that can't make that leap end up being homeless. I mean, I think we’re creating a homeless crisis.

MG: One of the things that you see, and it's not just with Chinese communities, you see it with Italian communities, Portuguese communities, is that the communities that used to be in the centre of those cities have moved out often to suburbs, often to other parts of the city, and they have a vibrant Toronto and Vancouver and other communities will have vibrant Chinatowns outside of the city core where those Chinatowns used to be. Karen, from your perspective, why is it important to preserve those original neighbourhoods?

KAREN CHO: Well, I think, you know, Chinatown is more than just a transactional place where you buy something, where you go to eat. There's layers of meaning there. There are family associations that still exist in those Chinatowns that are, you know, are the first mutual aid places and they've been operating out of that neighbourhood for centuries. There's tradition and culture and gathering that happens there as well that's important to preserve. But, you know, Chinatown is also a stand in for those other neighbourhoods who have been wiped off the city map. You know, you just have to look at the freeway map of America to know where all the black communities were. Either it was Hogan's Alley in Vancouver that got wiped out for the Georgia Viaduct. So what happens in Chinatown and. To Rick's point, like Chinatown in a way is the quintessential Jane Jacobs neighbourhood. Or the 15-minute neighbourhood.

MG: The walkable neighbourhood.

KAREN CHO: Exactly. You know, walkable, sustainable, affordable, all of these things that in a way is like an urban planner’s dream. So and unlike some other ethnocultural neighbourhoods that have been erased, Chinatown, you know, be it in peril, is still here. So the kind of revitalization plans and the choices and the priorities we make could be a blueprint for the future, for inclusive neighbourhoods of the future, for these kind of vibrant neighbourhoods in the downtown core. So, you know, I think it's important to preserve them also not just for their history, but for their potential for unlocking the future, the future of the city and the priorities that we're choosing. You know, this kind of narrative that, you know, change is inevitable and everyone's going to get gentrified, you know, in a way, the film is a complete, you know, in opposition to that because people don't sit by and just watch their neighbourhood be gentrified and do nothing about it. You know, the buildings in Chinatown, in my Chinatown, you know, they're maybe three to five stories high, but the density in them is incredible. They hold, you know, there's Buddhist temples in there, there's family associations, restaurants, housing, all of that. And all the people that live there bring their grandchildren, bring their families, and all of that identifies the entire neighbourhood. If we're going to fill it with empty, you know, one bedroom Airbnb kind of studios, is that creating density? You know, who are we creating the city for and who is allowed to have a future in that neighbourhood? These are the questions as citizens in our cities we need to be asking. So that's why it's important. You know, Chinatown or the Chinatown story goes way beyond Chinese-Canadians or Chinatown itself. It's actually the kind of existential question of how and who we build the city for.

MG: Let me play something from the film. This is Michael Tan. He's part of the Chinatown Legacy Stewardship Group in Vancouver.

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MICHAEL TAN: Six years ago when I was looking to buy an apartment, I was looking at a place in Chinatown and my mom started bawling. Like she's like, why would you do that to us? Like do you not consider our thoughts and feelings? And why would you want to go back to Chinatown?

MG: He's one of the people who really wants to go back to this community. There's other people in the film as well. A guy who gives up his dream of being an opera singer to go. And you talk about ageing out of businesses, businesses that were, you know, the next generation doesn't want to take over the restaurant because they want to do something else and the business shuts down. He says, no, actually, I'm going to go and take over the family restaurant. What do you make of that?

KAREN CHO: Well, I mean, William Yu and his family's business, it's cam y dim sum in Vancouver. You know, there's a huge debate going on right now in Vancouver. I watched William live at the city hall. You know, the 105 Keefer site is up for development again, even though the community fought so hard not to have this site develop into a luxury condo.

MG: Just described what that is.

KAREN CHO: Well, 105 Keefer is a site right beside the Chinese cultural centre, the Veterans and the Railway Workers Memorial in Chinatown. It's an empty site, but it's also a site that potentially robs, I would argue, robs the community of its future. And there's a big developer who wanted to rezone it, develop it into these kind of luxury condos, and the whole community came out in 2017 against this and fought this. It's gone to the Supreme Court. It's back on, you know, the city hall kind of a docket to get approved. Over 70 people came out and now it's going to get extended to June 12th. But William was among those people because William, you know, as a young man, his family has had businesses in that Chinatown for over 40 years. And Kam Wai Dim Sum is arguably the biggest success story to come out of Vancouver’s Chinatown during COVID. And why is that? Because they're not like a tourist facing kind of business. They're not selling $50, you know, Asian fusion plates for rich people. They're providing affordable food in a neighbourhood that really needs affordable food. And, you know, William and his family also don't just see their community or their neighbours as the Chinese folks Around them or the low income Chinese seniors. To them, their neighbours are the folks in the Downtown Eastside as well, marginalized people who want to have the dignity to be able to buy food. So on one level, yeah, it's a frozen dim sum business. They make delicious things. But on another level, that business and the fact that William and his family is continuing that business is an anchor for the entire neighbourhood and the stability of all the people's lives in that neighbourhood. So William with tons of other people in Vancouver right now are, you know, thinking about that kind of existential question of who are rebuilding this city for, who is this neighbourhood for.

MG: So what is it going to take, aside from people like William, to preserve these neighbourhoods?

KAREN CHO: To me, the future of Chinatown is so intrinsically linked to its cultural heritage and its intangible, you know, like the cultural things that happen in the building. That's what keeps the neighbourhood authentic, and that's actually a key to unlocking its future.

MG: Rick, you're doing this through storytelling with these postcards in front of me for the longing and belonging, 100 years, 100 stories. Tell me about the Long Time No See Collective.

RICK WONG: During 2021, my wife actually initiated this. We were talking to friends of ours from their porches and like we weren't allowed to actually meet anybody. But we said, like what are we going to do? Some of the stores look like they're going to close. There's anti-maskers coming down Spadina and bullying people every weekend, right, these big rallies and all this. And meanwhile, developers are scooping in and buying up properties. People are throwing in the towel and all this. We thought, what can we do? So at that time, we started our first project, which was called Long Time No See Morgan Honoi, which is a phrase that Brenda's mother used to use when she would come in to Chinatown and she'd see a friend of hers and it was like, I see your face. You're still alive. I'm still alive. We went on social media and made a post saying, if anybody wants to do a selfie and say what does this neighbourhood mean to you, we'll make a poster of it. And we posted 200 posters of people through Chinatown saying what this community means to them. And it kind of breaks me up, right, because it was such an emotional thing. This year, we had approached the Varley because we had all these nice photographs and they got a Canada Council grant and said, we want you to work with the Markham community. What we found with the suburban Chinese community is that a lot of them had no idea of the history of what has happened. You'd show them, you’d talk to them about the Exclusion Act and they're like, I had no idea. We’d talk to them about Chinatown and take them into one of the old associations and they're like, their mouths drop. Like there's this desire to make this connection back and forth, but there's no bridges to that. And so while the Markham community is very prosperous and looks very affluent, we were interviewing some people there and we said, during COVID, did you have any racist incidents? They went, oh no, nothing too bad. People would drive by and yell at us out of cars or we saw some broken windows and some graffiti, but it wasn't too bad. And I'm like, what! Like even though the Exclusion Act is 100 years ago, there is an undercurrent of Canadian racism which is still there. And some of the success which goes on in these suburban communities is, and my own family, the same thing, a lot of our success is to keep racism at bay in the saying, no, no, no, we're good people. I mean, even during the, somebody made a comment during the opening of the show out in Markham that Markham is always open to good immigrants and everybody kind of winced because it's like, what does that mean, right?

MG: Who's a good immigrant?

RICK WONG: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, it's a fine, it's a needle that, the eye of a needle that gets put up there. So anyway, the show we're doing up, what we did, Long Time No See is a collective of 11 artists and educators and writers and photographers. We worked with the Markham community and we did a hundred stories.

MG: Part of this is about the resilience of these communities, and you both have great affection for them. You see them kind of threatened, but you also really love these communities. So I guess in the last few seconds that we have, is there a place in Chinatown that comes to mind? Is there one spot to you that kind of represents the heart of the community for you?

RICK WONG: I think it's the street. As I came through there today and there was somebody, like some religious person haranguing everybody, but I just thought, you know, when we were out in Markham and we asked people what the place means, they're talking about the malls, but you are not allowed to do that in the mall, right? There's a lady selling vegetables on the street. You're not allowed to do that in the mall. Like there's this life aspect, unpredictable aspect. Some people don't like that. But for me, that's what makes it. It's public. You know, you need that public realm which isn't controlled by a security guard in the mall.

MG: What about for you, Karen?

KAREN CHO: Well, for me, I mean, Montreal is my Chinatown. So for me, it really is the Wings Noodle factory in that place that, you know, because of the history, all immigrants came through there. Irish, British, Jewish, French and Chinese. It's a place that was an anchor for our community during the Exclusion Act and the TED tax years. But it's a place that continues to breathe culture and cultural production into the neighbourhood, be it with the first ever bilingual fortune cookies, the noodles that are made there today or also, you know, just the employing of newer immigrants in that neighbourhood. It's a hub for us and a symbol of how long we've been here and the future that lies ahead.

MG: Chinatown for me is where I eat. I mean, there's all sorts of layers to it, but for me, when I go there, it's the first place in a new city that I'll often go and eat. And the film made me really hungry and made me want to go to those places. Thank you both for being here.

KAREN CHO: Thank you.

RICK WONG: Thank you.

MG: “Big Fight in Little Chinatown” is on a cross-Canada screening tour. You can also stream it at home on TVO.org. Karen Cho is the director and Ric Wong is one of the people featured in that film. That's The Current for this Wednesday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. We’ll leave you this morning with some music by the Brazilian bossa nova legend, Astrud Gilberto. She died on Monday. She was 83 years old. She had an incredible career that spanned four decades in music, but was best known for the first song she ever recorded, a song that changed how Brazilian music was heard around the world. And this is it. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Song: “The Girl from Ipanema” by Astrud Gilberto]

Wednesday June 7, 2023 Episode Transcript